The Jam Team! - Building Communities with Storytelling and Innovation

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And so you sort of forget a little bit of what marketing actually is, which is art and it's craft and it's joy.

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Who are the domain experts and how do we get their domain of expertise?

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As a knowledge gap that's solved through Stacklist.

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Where does the jam vibe come from, hi Hello.

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How are you?

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Doing good.

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How's the day?

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good, okay, tell me the truth.

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Can you hear me breathe in my microphone?

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do you?

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Hear it if you do like, if you do the pronounced sniffy, then then I can't but like just sit for a second, I don't hear it.

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But if you're doing the like, do I have a stuffy nose thing?

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Then I get that, I can hear I've never had a mic before.

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This is like this.

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Oh so I don't know where to put it?

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are we breaking this mic in?

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Is this like yeah, well, I broke it.

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Tried to break it in yesterday, uh, and what happened was ian was like.

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I can hear you breathing wait, okay.

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So when ian comes on, let's, let's both, let's both like, just sniff, like every now and then and just see if, like, if, if he notices, um, how you doing good good, I told you it's my son's birthday, like I don't know.

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Oh, that's right happy birthday, you can.

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You can send him a clip of me singing amazing and it's uh.

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Two is that right two, two, two years, that's amazing it's so fast.

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He's almost ready for college.

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Yeah, I know, I've got a four-year-old that's going on 14.

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What did he say?

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The other day we sat and played an Xbox racing game and he was like good race, bro.

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I was like wait a second.

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What do you mean, bro?

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Just don't, don't't, don't, let's, let's, don't get into.

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Uh, yeah, that's you don't need to go around calling everyone bro but it sounds funny when he says it, but like it's so funny, it just I stubbed my toe or like whatever it was.

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Something happened that caused me to say a swear word loudly.

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And he's in the stage where he's repeating everything and I had and I haven't had to think about this so much yet because he's he's been so little right like I'm listening to, to songs that swear, and I'm swearing like I've never really thought about it.

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He's a baby totally and now I was like shit.

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He was like behind me, like oh, amazing.

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Yeah, uh, I I heard something here.

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Yeah, william, or my oldest is eight, hasn't, hasn't started like repeating, like swear words, but but I did hear in the other the other day, like playing legos with matthew, who's the the younger brother, and william was like, oh man, I really screwed that up and like it just felt like that's sort of like okay, are you stressed out?

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Like is the job?

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Like too much, totally yeah.

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Oh my gosh, funny, funny boys.

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Well, that's amazing.

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When are you doing party stuff?

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Party stuff today actually.

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Oh, wow, yeah.

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Yeah, yeah, it's party.

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Free starts at five nice oh and it ends at seven oh yeah, we just had uh william turned eight and we had 10 of his friends over, three boys and seven girls how many do you have?

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I keep on here.

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There's like two, three so far.

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Oh, okay well yeah, just do it.

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Yeah, two, williams eight and matthews four, um, and so, uh, william had 10, 10 friends over and three boys and seven girls.

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And god, the boys like, oh my gosh, I just like every other poop joke, and you know what I mean.

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And they're like all, like, they're all in every, every single kids and PJs, and they're all like doing a movie.

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They were watching the wild robot and, of course, it felt like the boys were on the back row.

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These two, two speaker, yeah, totally All bro.

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And then, like these two sweet girls would come in and go, the boys are throwing popcorn, and I all bro.

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And then, like these two sweet girls would come in and go, the boys are throwing popcorn, and I would go in there, listen.

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But I mean, I'm like, no, listen, no popcorn, don't jump on the couch, you know.

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and and then, of course, about halfway through the movie, they all go out to my son's room and you can just hear him jumping off the second like um oh no the bunk bed and I'm like, can we please don't jump off the bunk you know what I mean it just felt like a and I, of course, like I, I'm an empath that sort of feels and hears and takes in all the signals from all the things.

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So I'm just, I'm just sort of like, as everyone's leaving, my wife's like, okay, let's just.

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Let's just take a minute.

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Ian's in the way.

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Do you see Ian?

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He's told me he ends in the way.

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Do you see ian?

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He's telling me he's in the waiting room.

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Yeah, I just, I don't know where ian.

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Let's see if.

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Oh, there he is.

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It didn't get it.

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Didn't give me a notification.

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Riverside, I gotta talk to you about that.

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Can't leave ian in the waiting room no worries, no worries, kyle silly hi thanks for thanks for having me wait, can you hear us sniffing?

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Can you hear us?

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I was telling Kyle how I don't know where to put my mic.

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Oh, was it the gain, the gain thing the breathing and the mics.

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So, like the first thing I did when I joined, I was like Kyle, can you hear this?

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It was like when you do a pronounced sniff, then yes, I can.

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I can hear it um how are you?

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how's it going?

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uh, your, your, your sound sounds so good yeah oh, thank you.

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Well, let me know if you can hear me breathing too.

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I don't know if I also have these, these gain problems, but no, but no, I'm good.

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I like, uh, yeah, right, like thursday is crunch time in the jam week and so um, so yeah what's crunch time mean?

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oh, it's just like what's crunch time in this in in jam land.

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So jam world.

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We post 7 am every friday, dilly jam.

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Of course we're the same type of you.

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You know we're in the same same game here um building.

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I'm talking about building stack list yeah and so.

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So what it looks like so what it looks like here, um, on thursday, is that we're we're prepping, you know, we're sharing in drafts, we're prepping clips and all this, all this sort of thing and so, um.

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So in my world looks like a lot of editing, a lot of sharing.

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Sharing drafts, a lot of like thumbnails, like this is something I've started to care a bit about more and just to put more attention to, and so I'm going through a whole bunch of these, you know, tying together all these different tools, making different stuff and proposing stuff.

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So yeah, oh my gosh, that's the, that's the Mr Beast philosophy right Of, just like getting those thumbnails and and titles like just right, so that it catches.

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Yeah, I mean it's a whole thing right in youtube.

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It's like the most important thing I think we're realizing, like the, the yeah when we like think through, to stand out in just like half a second, that's we haven't.

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Obviously.

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We're just like we're in the place where we're more about just making sure that we are posting something.

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So there's like a heartbeat to things and that we're like we're testing out a few memes're more about just making sure that we are posting something.

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So there's like a heartbeat to things and that we're like we're testing out a few memes and things like that, but we haven't gotten to a place where we've we've started in a refinement yet, but amazing.

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Well, I like, before we dive into this, thank you both for taking time during, especially during crunch time, to to of course kyle, of course, but I mean, I just so.

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I just want to start off by saying like, this journey is so fun and interesting, what was it?

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I went to one of my first events in new york and I met some um, uh, someone from, uh, union square ventures.

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And then how did this?

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How do how do we get?

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So?

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This is the here's the thread.

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I met someone from union square ventures and we talked about stack list and then I started looking into union square ventures and I looked into, you know who union square?

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had had invested in and I started going through a portfolio and then I stumble on jam, I install jam and then I'm like martina, our cto.

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I'm like you've got to use jam, and now I've got got this thing I got to post today on X, by the way, which is basically us in Slack we're moving from Jira to Linear, and one of Martina's first questions was does it integrate with Jam?

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And so I sent her a screenshot of the Linear integration.

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She was like okay, good, so this is what our uh cto approved, uh the first time that we heard about stacklist is well, due to a contest right like, and we had that's right so that's how we sort of like heard about you and met you and I remember like the first thing I thought, without like ever having seen StackList no contracts about it I just saw like Kyle from StackList and I was so happy that that was the winner, because StackList is such a cool name.

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This is going to be a cool company to have a cool name, so that's awesome.

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Amazing.

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Well, thank you, that's right, though we actually first sort of interacted because, ian, you read my name to the public and said the winner, which was amazing, by the way.

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I I got to go see zuck um give a talk, which was amazing.

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But I just love how it feels like our kind of um uh, both cultures and product and like the intersections are so interesting, even though you all are sort of you know maybe.

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Let's say I'm in, we're in like sixth or seventh grade and you guys are in high school and are playing like the varsity sports and we're like oh my gosh, but it's just so cool to see like the, the evolution and to hear the stories and and but, to also really interact with you all because I just love you know the, the culture and the, the vibe that that jam has.

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I would love, I would love to know y'all's POV on on from a jam perspective, like how, how and where does that, where does the jam vibe come from?

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honestly, I think, like if you my really my real honest answer, I think it comes a lot from, from the jam founders like that's, that's where I think, like the, the vibes start right and that their, their personalities really sort of influence the, the, the startup, and and what we want to do and how we are.

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So like that's the biggest place and then, like you know, marketing.

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Yeah, yeah, no, but I'm not even talking from a marketing Like.

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There's a difference between, like, a company having a face that sort of seems fun.

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But really like you two, both.

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I mean I know Danny's, because Danny's was the most fun episode to ever like record, because you can even see, even from, like even Danny sort of emulates and sort of brings forward even through the camera.

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Like it's one of those where most interviews that I've got on we sort of talk like this and we go, oh, that's so interesting or whatever.

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But Danny's, we were just like cutting up, and you know what I mean.

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Like it just sort of but and but but you both, I think.

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I think it's so different to have one person that sort of stands out in that way.

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But you both have such a great energy and and and a vibe that sort of continues to like build upon that, like that jamness, um, which is amazing, so, um, I love it and and and I'm interested to know how much uh like within the company.

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From a remote perspective, it kind of feels like that too yeah, what do you mean?

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like, just from like, from a, from an all I I on our podcast we also danny and I talked about like I told.

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I told her she should go on slack and say that she said that she's mandating a uh, a return to office policy for everyone immediately.

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Um, but like, but at that point there was no office, but like from a remote, from a remote company perspective, like how you sort of keep the, how do you keep kind of the, the energy and and the vibe, even internally, from a remote perspective.

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Yeah, well, I think one thing for me that was new with Jam, versus being all remote, versus before I was primarily in office and with this I think that our like how we're communicating on Slack and like all the just the expectations around the level of communication and the is different than I've experienced in the past and so with that it's like like there's like very, very proactive, very um, caught like everyone, like chiming in is something that's been new to me and it's something that I think really speaks to the yeah, like speaks to the cultural like just what the norm is at jam and um and yeah, and I think that the like, also the, this like positivity and this like sort of this uh brand, uh tone, I think also comes through actually through the product as well, like, like with the attention to design in it, like I could imagine a version of this product, of our product, that would be very um, like, with different founders, in a different culture, would be just like a totally different right, like a linear style, super, totally minimalist.

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We are.

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We are about speed and efficiency and I think it's a very intentional utility.

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It's like utility first, that's the thing you can, you know, versus like having the the strawberry jam kind of feel is that exactly, and so I think that that was a like, that's a choice that is also reflected in the culture but also comes through, actually the like like through the product as well, and it's a cool.

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It's cool to see that show itself in both places.

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Yeah.

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Nice yeah.

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I think there's a few things I've noticed that Jam does.

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That, I think, work well for remote that I wasn't super used to Like.

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It's like a little different.

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Sort of little like idiosyncrasies, for example, like at Jam.

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Uh, sort of little like idiosyncrasies, for example, like at jam, nobody's going to shy away from like, just like huddling you, you know, if it's like a 30 second thing, like you know what, like I'm just going to call you, and so it makes you feel a little bit closer because there's no like can you talk, can we schedule a zoom, can we net?

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So things right away you can just huddle or or like.

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For example, danny, she loves to send like voice notes as feedback I do too.

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It's so.

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It's so good to be able to just like, instead of typing it out, and free form a little bit.

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You get that extra little context and like emotion and other stuff.

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It's so good yeah, and like the tone of it and everything.

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It's like I think there's definitely some drawbacks to remote work which you have to consciously try to work around, and those are some of the ways that that we do.

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And then, when we have off sites, that definitely like, you can definitely feel like those three or four days like the boost.

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And well, I always say, like the boost in like work productivity, it's like wow, but the boost, it like it's off, like, but like the boost, how much you understand the company, what's happening, everybody else around you, uh, is so amazing, like really, it's um, so like that combination of like going to off sites, taking advantage and then doing all those little things like slack, huddles what is the um?

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what is?

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I'd love to hear both of y'all's journeys from a jam perspective, like when?

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When did you join?

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At what stage, and and and kind of what have you seen through the evolution?

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Ian, do you want to tell them?

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Well, yeah, I guess we we both started about a year and a little in a few months ago, and what's funny is that we were we actually started like within two days of each other, and this is amazing.

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Yeah and oh.

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This is amazing.

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Yeah and so, um.

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So, while while ivana's job title is the founding marketer, I will let the record show that I was a day before ivana oh yeah, no, but, but um, but yeah.

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So we both started um at Jam around the same time.

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There's, like in the product and company story, like after we had like these tell-all signs of a product market fit, and like starting to grow, and it'd be like this is the time for more marketing, just focus as a company.

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Like this is when we both joined.

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And for me, I actually heard about the job through the Lenny's Podcast community Slack channel and it was because I was a big fan of Lenny's before.

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For me, I think it's my favorite product podcast and the preeminent example of what a great B2B podcast looks like.

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And so I was in that community when I saw this job post and I think that was a early signal that this we were going to be aligned in terms of what our sort of content visions were going to look like.

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And so for me, like I'd never been, like I'm current, so I'm, my job title is creator, but beforehand I'd never been.

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I'd never been a creator.

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Like I was a product marketer before, and for me, with the, what this looked like was I was making a lot of these demo videos of our, of our tool.

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Before um I still I was looking back.

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It's still live the how choco works.

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The video I made before in, before in the last, in the last role and it's funny because I was the um I've made this transition between I was like the, the.

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We did it in a scrappy way.

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I was the scrappy sort of narrator, internal narrator, so we didn't hire someone else to do it.

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I was like I'm not paying someone, I'm not paying someone to do a voiceover when I could do a damn good job myself, um, and so I did the, so I did the, the voiceover for that.

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And that was the start of it.

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And I was like, oh, I was making all this stuff for the sales team and I was like, oh, I like this thing.

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And so when I was I, I was in berlin for this time and then I decided I wanted to move back to the us and so I, um, when I was looking for my next like, looking for the next role, I said this oh, create a role at a startup, like what is this?

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And so that's what's really taking me down, this sort of like for me in my career generally, like, I see it as like, I move towards this sort of like product educator type, uh, role and function, and that's the thing that's what's really been exciting to me is, like these skills All this editing has been new for me Before.

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I always came at it from a marketing side.

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I was briefing different people on the team about how we do stuff like this, but now I find myself in the middle of it, right, learning how to actually do this skill set and try to do it well.

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Well, you're doing amazingly and I will say, you know, with the way that, the way that I see jam sort of out and about it, doesn't it?

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It's doing its job and that it doesn't feel like marketing.

00:18:33.642 --> 00:18:51.709
Um, because I think there's this like, if you think about, when I think about someone that is like a founder, like company, that that maybe loves product and just sort of like talks about product features and sort of put stuff out there, and then also there's the marketing which is like trying to sell the sort of the benefits, and then that gray space in the middle.

00:18:51.709 --> 00:18:58.330
You know, I think that's where you know we're seeing so many more people living and breathing and sort of in that sort of.

00:18:58.330 --> 00:18:59.621
You know, is what?

00:18:59.681 --> 00:19:00.481
What does this mean?

00:19:00.481 --> 00:19:29.119
It's blending the sort of culture and features and benefits and and being able to sort of communicate that also in an authentic way and not in a, when I think about sort of old school advertising right, mad men, kind of just there's a poster and it's got a benefit that sort of catches, you're gonna, you know, you're gonna lose weight or you're gonna like whatever you know, versus like seeing the stuff, that stuff that you guys do on showing the features and the funny stuff and showing the product demo videos and things like that.

00:19:29.119 --> 00:19:36.984
It feels so authentic that you can almost like just feel yourself using it or what it's going to be like to sort of have it in your team.

00:19:38.269 --> 00:19:38.911
Oh, thank you.

00:19:38.911 --> 00:19:45.137
The thing about like the jam audience that kind of makes this easy, like not, I mean of makes this easy, like not.

00:19:45.137 --> 00:19:47.184
I mean it's not easy, but I mean it's just.

00:19:47.184 --> 00:19:53.170
It like makes so much sense, right, it's because the gem audience is just like people building other products, right.

00:19:53.170 --> 00:19:59.364
So it's like of it's like we have so much to talk about, like with each other, you know.

00:19:59.364 --> 00:20:11.797
So it's like so easy to sort of, like, you know, make a video about this feature that we're launching, or make this, and then do it from this perspective of like let me show you how we built it or the challenges that we came up against.

00:20:11.797 --> 00:20:15.224
And it's not like because it's like what I mean.

00:20:15.224 --> 00:20:25.782
What I mean to say is that for us, it's like a fun conversation to have, or a fun video to make, and for the people we hope, right, like for the gem community, it's also just like interesting.

00:20:27.086 --> 00:20:27.247
Yeah.

00:20:27.615 --> 00:20:33.695
And at the same time, like, obviously right, like you're showing the product, you're letting them know what it can do, but you're doing it in this way.

00:20:33.695 --> 00:20:36.618
That is just kind of more fun for everybody who likes to build software.

00:20:37.159 --> 00:20:47.387
Totally, and what would you say from a company building perspective, like, what should you know, martina and I and the team take away from like from your?

00:20:47.387 --> 00:21:05.413
You know, from the time that you all started over the past year, what have you kind of learned in that sort of marketing and creator space of kind of what works in terms of um, because I obviously, you know, I think people start companies and then you sort of you really start throwing spaghetti at everything.

00:21:05.413 --> 00:21:11.858
Right, you've got like you've got like funny stuff and serious stuff and product feature stuff and you've got memes and you know what I mean.

00:21:11.858 --> 00:21:15.155
Like you're you're really just sort of trying to find what fits like.

00:21:15.155 --> 00:21:25.563
What have you both kind of learned um from um, from your your past year at jam, I think, for me, yeah, for me, what I've seen, I guess the.

00:21:26.124 --> 00:21:28.307
The first question to ask about the, the marketing and the.

00:21:28.307 --> 00:21:31.790
For me, like particularly the content that I'm I'm making is, like, what is the primary?

00:21:31.790 --> 00:21:33.499
Uh, like, what's the primary goal?

00:21:33.499 --> 00:21:41.396
Is this, like supposed to be a primary, like growth driver for the business, or is this supposed to be like um, is this serving a different, a different function?

00:21:41.396 --> 00:21:46.478
Like, maybe this would be like um, you know, making your product feel like a well-wrapped gift.

00:21:46.478 --> 00:21:52.540
You know, like, when someone's in an onboarding email, right, and they, they're, they're being welcome, right, that's a different audience.

00:21:52.540 --> 00:21:57.502
That's not like you know me telling you and walking through all the features of of jam and telling you about everything new.

00:21:57.502 --> 00:22:12.096
Like this is that will be relevant for a different audience than you making short, like you doing short form channels and like going 100 on that and like basically making videos for people that don't know or aren't invested in your story.

00:22:12.096 --> 00:22:15.652
Um, right and so, like us making the building jam podcast like this.

00:22:15.652 --> 00:22:18.260
This, for example, is a um.

00:22:18.260 --> 00:22:27.115
Like this is a, a play over, it's a long-term play and and we're hoping that we really make this place where we've documented our journey and it's and it's providing helpful.

00:22:27.115 --> 00:22:34.961
It's providing helpful insights and stuff, but it's also um, it's a longer term um, also like vision and part of something that we're building and so, um.

00:22:35.221 --> 00:23:01.077
So I think, for me, like, uh, like after you define what these things are, we, we have dabbled and we keep like going down experiments in each of these sorts of realms and like, for us, what it looked like at one point was this, like we called it, the owl experiment, where basically, I was making I was going on these one day sprints, where I was like I'm going to make a engaging video that's not about jam, about something that our audience, like our audience, would be interested in.

00:23:01.077 --> 00:23:02.161
I'm going to do that every day.

00:23:02.161 --> 00:23:17.926
For however long it was it was like a month and it was like, literally, what matters is just getting better at doing this and and that, and at the end of that experiment, we're like, wow, okay, well, these videos aren't particularly working well in terms of driving new people to the product.

00:23:17.926 --> 00:23:28.980
Um, what if this effort was instead more focused on making all these things that we're doing, like all these uh, like, uh, focused on these, these other the, these other channels and other places?

00:23:28.980 --> 00:23:38.557
And so that was an example of a uh, I don't know a time where, like us clarifying, like I don't know, we've dabbled in having these different goals and different focuses as a team.

00:23:39.159 --> 00:24:00.888
Um, but knowing where, like how you primarily are playing into that, like I could see for for you all, like having clearly the icp telling you how they're using stacklist every day to organize restaurants, to organize all like their the book, their favorite books, like literally hearing from the icp every single day, feels like something that is like could help you reach a larger audience.

00:24:00.888 --> 00:24:02.978
And then there's this other thing of like oh like.

00:24:02.978 --> 00:24:04.001
Is this onboarding?

00:24:04.001 --> 00:24:10.039
Like how are we building out the best and most inviting and great onboarding flow too, which is sort of a different goal of the content?

00:24:10.221 --> 00:24:11.123
Yeah, no, that's great.

00:24:11.123 --> 00:24:13.288
Yeah, I thought of what you guys said.

00:24:13.694 --> 00:24:19.826
I think like the biggest thing that I've learned at jam is gonna sound a little bit weird, but I was thinking about it when you said.

00:24:19.826 --> 00:24:20.788
I was like what am I gonna say?

00:24:20.788 --> 00:24:26.626
But like the truth of, I think the biggest thing I've learned like this past year is kind of like the.

00:24:26.626 --> 00:24:31.484
The definition that I used to have of marketing has changed and what I think that marketing is has changed.

00:24:32.346 --> 00:25:10.326
Um, because I most of my experience, marketing software has been like at sales led companies, so marketing at a sales let's up for company is completely different ballgame and and so you sort of forget a little bit of like what marketing actually is, um, which is art and it's craft and it's joy and um, that's what I got to do a jam like every day, which is like awesome and but also like really, really, really challenging, like so much harder than I thought, like writing a tweet, like a two line tweet.

00:25:10.326 --> 00:25:24.926
I could spend honestly, like two hours going back and forth and rethinking it and no, and just like trying to get it just right because it's art and that's what I think marketing should be, and rethinking it and know, and just like trying to get it just right because it's art and and that's what I I think marketing should be yeah, no, totally I think it.

00:25:25.007 --> 00:25:31.835
I think it's so different from I was at a software startup that that was primarily b2b and it was a sales-led company.

00:25:31.835 --> 00:25:35.188
It really felt like one of those like what, how much are you going to save me?

00:25:35.188 --> 00:25:39.164
How much quicker and faster and better is this than the alternative?

00:25:39.164 --> 00:25:43.682
And if you can prove that, and I trust you, I'll buy your thing.

00:25:43.682 --> 00:25:54.999
And so like everything is sort of so focused and tactical on that that it becomes easy to just basically refine that message so different to sit down and sort of write who are we?

00:25:55.721 --> 00:25:55.980
right.

00:25:55.980 --> 00:25:57.925
What do we like and like why?

00:25:59.189 --> 00:25:59.809
why do we care?

00:25:59.809 --> 00:26:00.712
Oh, why do you care?

00:26:00.712 --> 00:26:01.714
Or where are we headed?

00:26:01.714 --> 00:26:03.460
And do you want to come along with the journey?

00:26:03.460 --> 00:26:23.583
Like it's, it's, you're, you're crafting that sort of you almost imagine there's a jam story, like a jam movie, right, that you're sort of crafting like page by page every day and and you're writing that story and everyone looks at each other every day and goes like what's next, what's the next line, like you know, and it's sort of like do you know the line?

00:26:23.583 --> 00:26:24.044
Do you?

00:26:24.044 --> 00:26:24.664
Is this one?

00:26:24.664 --> 00:26:25.166
It's OK.

00:26:26.875 --> 00:26:30.838
But that's exactly like you and Stacklist, it's like the same thing.

00:26:31.200 --> 00:26:32.304
Right, I don't, I don't know.

00:26:32.304 --> 00:26:35.640
I mean, we, basically we, I just had a.

00:26:35.640 --> 00:26:37.002
This week is so different.

00:26:37.002 --> 00:26:41.269
We first started and I look back at the at the original pitch deck and it was a social bookmarking tool, right.

00:26:41.269 --> 00:26:45.878
So that was super useful to just save your stuff and maybe you can send it to a friend or whatever it is.

00:26:45.939 --> 00:27:00.666
And what we've and what I've come to realize so much over the past like even two weeks, and so many different good conversations with advisors and things like that is what's missing in the world is a more culturally relevant, modern pinterest.

00:27:00.666 --> 00:27:08.455
But that is sort of the operating system for links in your life but also just makes it easy to share your favorite stuff with other people.

00:27:08.455 --> 00:27:15.356
And that evolution of how, that, how you get there, and has been less about how.

00:27:15.356 --> 00:27:24.565
Yeah, it's iterating every day over every line, as you know, in the script and and sort of like, and thinking about it and scribbling it out and writing it again and whatever it is.

00:27:24.565 --> 00:27:39.844
And it's so weird to think about how you imagine even businesses in the past, like, but you write a business plan, right, and you go do that plan, hey, and you have, like you know, you have sales-led advertising.

00:27:39.844 --> 00:27:41.036
It's pretty straightforward, it's all.

00:27:41.135 --> 00:27:48.137
It's all sort of very um it's like it's all very straightforward and direct, yeah but like also kind of like.

00:27:48.598 --> 00:27:57.143
I mean, there's some, some marketing teams that excel at this and they do it with joy and they make it into an art, but that I'm sure, uh, like I.

00:27:57.183 --> 00:28:00.009
I mean I think, for example, gong Gong is really good at this.

00:28:00.009 --> 00:28:36.825
I admire them, but most of the time, like it's not even that effective Like, because it's like sort of you're based on like a lot of volume, a lot of sort of like measuring and tracking and seeing like okay, if we get a 10% conversion rate, that means we need this many people to down this, this and that, and so it's like I think hard as a marketer in that position, and I'm sure like talented marketers can definitely go ahead and talk to users and find out and do some awesome marketing anyway, but you're far away from users in that situation.

00:28:36.825 --> 00:28:55.901
Yeah, and PLG, like Gamma's product-led, and so is Stacklist you can just go sign up and so that vibe is like as a marketer puts you in a position to just like be talking to people every day and, without you even realizing it, you're building community and it's not even on purpose.

00:28:56.536 --> 00:29:13.922
And you're coexisting in a very close space to the people who are using it right, which makes you better and more intuitive on how you can make it better and communicate to them, versus, in my mind, if we just sit up and sync up something really catchy or pithy and then put it out there and some people buy.

00:29:13.922 --> 00:29:17.416
You could say that's a success, but I think it's also.

00:29:17.416 --> 00:29:24.047
You can have companies that do that, but for us, what we're finding interesting is when we talk to creators.

00:29:24.047 --> 00:29:35.307
We'll talk to a creator has, you know, quarter million followers and say hey, we'd love to build you out a profile and basically curate all your favorite stuff and put it on your profile.

00:29:35.307 --> 00:29:38.497
If we did that, would you switch your current LinkedIn profile?

00:29:38.497 --> 00:29:39.419
And they're like yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.

00:29:39.419 --> 00:29:48.903
Like there is no sort of like I'm really embedded in that community and I've been with them for a while and like I kind of work with them to make the product better.

00:29:48.903 --> 00:29:51.916
They're like no, sounds good, I'll save six bucks a month.

00:29:52.699 --> 00:30:13.230
Like there's no, there's no loyalty or or community or sort of story between the, the user, and um and I I find that interesting um having having that sort of very like um binary you either use it or you don't sort of relationship with with users yeah, yeah, I wonder how you think about this kyle.

00:30:13.250 --> 00:30:27.932
Like this is happening a little bit, um in the jam world, which is like at first it was like very clear, right, like jam community of users, um, but now it's like a little bit like confusing about like who's our community?

00:30:27.932 --> 00:30:30.500
How do we make sure that all of our users are in it?

00:30:30.500 --> 00:30:35.778
Um, there's a lot of people who are like probably are not jam users, but they're part of the community anyway.

00:30:35.778 --> 00:30:38.506
Like you know, they're technical and they're awesome.

00:30:38.506 --> 00:30:39.309
Like so how do you like blend those two in a way that makes sense?

00:30:39.309 --> 00:30:40.148
And at the end of the community anyway, like you know, they're technical and they're awesome.

00:30:40.148 --> 00:30:47.442
Like so how do you like blend those two in a way that makes sense and at the end of the day, you know, business-wise makes sense, like I mean, you want to.

00:30:47.804 --> 00:31:42.480
I I think it's about having you know it's funny we've actually gone through a process over the past two weeks of setting up a really good and this is like shout out to lexi for setting up our discord but a really really good sort of well structured discord that we're going to open up soon and I've seen I went through I don't know how much either of you went through sort of the the like the early crypto boom over the past like couple of years when it's sort of like everybody was sort of started talking about Ethereum and stuff like that and but I was like I was in it, I was swimming in the and everybody lived in discords right, and you basically like you came in and they had games and you sort of checked in and you got status and points and and you almost like kind of felt like you were oh, hey, so and so and hey so and so, and I you know what I mean Like you start like and that's how basically the because a lot of crypto projects were were built off of the hundred percent.

00:31:42.480 --> 00:31:52.366
I mean, some of them had some utility, but most of them, like primarily, were a story that started from almost nothing into just this sort of reality distortion field.

00:31:52.366 --> 00:32:03.980
And then everyone in there is sort of saying like oh, I like this, and Discord was the one place where you could sort of create this community, together with voice and video and games and chat and links and all these sort of things.

00:32:03.980 --> 00:32:20.671
And I found it interesting how much the crypto community and NFTs like relied on Discord to sort of create these little bubbles where people could come in, kind of like the saloon or the watering hole where you just kind of popped in and you were like, hey everybody, what's going on?

00:32:20.671 --> 00:32:24.017
Like here's this thing I did, or you know, I bought this or I sold this.

00:32:24.037 --> 00:32:31.362
This is what I did and I really liked watching that and seeing how that was created, because you think about like how different that is from.

00:32:31.362 --> 00:32:39.527
I mean, nike's a great brand, but I'm gonna pick on Nike for a minute, like the Nike Run Club or like the apps that they have, like they're on.

00:32:39.527 --> 00:32:40.188
I take that back.

00:32:40.188 --> 00:32:44.316
Nike actually has they have local groups that run and things like that, but I don't interact with those groups.

00:32:44.316 --> 00:32:55.537
I primarily just have kind of like the groups that are on my phone in an app, but it doesn't feel like anything that I'm sort of actively a part of from a like chat, sharing feedback, like that.

00:32:55.576 --> 00:33:24.803
I'm kind of like in it, and I think what's really interesting is creating something like that, where people can just pop in and give feedback or like or get help or or share a win that you could share on social or like and and sort of creating a bit of that like, come dive into this with us and then also extending upon that, how about having in there you could have a jam betas group right, when it's sort of like hey, we're going to drop this thing, like the AI feature that I tried.

00:33:25.015 --> 00:33:26.239
You're in the beta group.

00:33:27.142 --> 00:33:46.805
I am in the beta group, no, but I also what's really interesting imagine having a beta chat group where you also had people sort of like continually going like hey, I tried the thing and here's my loom feedback and like, and they're talking and what you're doing is kind of like it's it's very much the developer github community right, where it's everybody's kind of in there and open source projects and you're trying and you're sort of building together.

00:33:46.805 --> 00:34:20.797
I think creates that community that you feel like you are helping build jam, even though you're not like on the payroll, um, which, especially if it's a brand and a product that you love, that can be, that can be, you know, um can feel, uh, like a little micro community that you're part of in your life um, prioritize this in their day.

00:34:20.818 --> 00:34:27.079
Right, there's a, there's so much like, so many things, right, you could be doing participating in a, in a, um, a different company's uh, private community, like, what is what is it like?

00:34:27.219 --> 00:34:29.525
What is this allow, like, allowing for you?

00:34:29.525 --> 00:34:32.438
Or like, and I think about for me, like the things that I like.

00:34:32.438 --> 00:34:58.394
One recent example was the the runway 48 hour ai generated film competition, and the reason, the reason I went, went in that discord was I was like I want to make a kick-ass film, right, and I don't know how to use this tool to make that film and it's annoying because I'm in the tool and I'm trying to do the stuff and I know that by being in this community, other people are going to share their tips and I'm going to figure out how to do it.

00:34:58.394 --> 00:35:04.117
Or I think about another one, like example of it like a video editor, like, like um descript, for example.

00:35:04.117 --> 00:35:16.702
Like I'm using descript all the time to edit, edit my stuff, and when I'm in there and I come up with a bug or something that's blocking me from doing my work, I want to, I want to voice it like, like you know, like as as jam as jam.

00:35:16.742 --> 00:35:20.989
we're probably like, okay, people are always surfacing all their errors.

00:35:22.858 --> 00:35:53.762
It's maybe like, ah, maybe let's not do it so loud, but for me it's funny, my hat changes because as I think about the script, I'm like I'm doing my work and I want you all to help me get this fixed, because I'm trying to do more of my work Totally to help me get this fixed because I'm trying to do more of my work right and so, totally, and so, with jam, it's like like we want to, like, we want to make that place such that when someone feels that, that like frustration perhaps, or comes across this edge case or whatever, they can voice this and then we can actually fix it and help them do their work right and so.

00:35:54.304 --> 00:35:57.260
So, yeah, so there's these, these different ways, right, but that's also a particular use case.

00:35:57.260 --> 00:35:59.389
There could be another one where it's like you know, like where we, but that's also a particular use case.

00:35:59.389 --> 00:36:00.934
There could be another one where it's like you know, like where we're.

00:36:00.934 --> 00:36:01.715
It's playing.

00:36:01.715 --> 00:36:08.541
A different use case or a different structure, right, I could see people yeah, totally, that's the first thing that comes to mind and a lot of times in those communities.

00:36:08.655 --> 00:36:25.242
Even if you look at Descript, you know Descript or like they have, you'll end up having leaders sort of organically pop up and start to help those people solve that thing before you've even gotten to them.

00:36:25.242 --> 00:36:29.981
And so, like, there are moments where, like some of that stuff can can come up, and I also think it's.

00:36:29.981 --> 00:36:37.467
You know, one of the things I always found fascinating in in the sort of crypto NFT world was also like in discord is when they were going to launch something.

00:36:37.467 --> 00:36:50.668
They would put something in there and have like and be like hey, we're going to launch this thing, come help advocate, you know whatever, and people would basically go out and start posting and start like doing stuff because they felt like they were kind of part of it.

00:36:50.668 --> 00:37:06.427
And so I think it's interesting trying to figure out I think there are some people that wouldn't get in there, that wouldn't get in there, but I think it's interesting potentially trying to find a little beta group of like how interesting and interested, like could people sort of come around?

00:37:06.427 --> 00:37:12.541
Not so much that, like you're gonna, it's not going to affect the bottom line, it's not going to like it's not going to move more, but it will.

00:37:12.663 --> 00:37:13.628
It would be one of those that.

00:37:13.628 --> 00:37:18.942
Are you creating a signal group right when you're like hey, we've got an idea and you go to the signal group and be like signal group, right where.

00:37:18.942 --> 00:37:19.590
You're like, hey, we've got an idea.

00:37:19.590 --> 00:37:21.239
And you go to the signal group and be like what do you think about this?

00:37:21.239 --> 00:37:30.445
And immediately, without going to run a formal user test with people you've never sort of that, you do it with people who sort of understand your journey and your intention and be like, hey, can I just get signal on this?

00:37:30.445 --> 00:37:32.076
And they're like that's a good idea.

00:37:32.076 --> 00:37:34.217
Or drop a meme and be like what do you guys think about this?

00:37:34.398 --> 00:37:40.905
first, you know what I mean or whatever, and just have that little place where, where, where people could, could kind of give you signal and stuff.

00:37:41.646 --> 00:37:42.367
I agree, like we.

00:37:42.367 --> 00:37:48.239
I think eventually we will have, like some, some sort of community platform hub.

00:37:48.239 --> 00:37:56.733
Right now it's like untethered, it's like everywhere, but but like it is there and it would be so good to be able to bring it into one place.

00:37:56.733 --> 00:38:02.746
It's just not not that easy like to just like put up a discord or or, like you know, set up a section.

00:38:02.746 --> 00:38:03.588
Like it needs to.

00:38:03.588 --> 00:38:08.780
It needs to be really valuable, and I don't think I know how to make that valuable yet.

00:38:10.226 --> 00:38:10.505
I would.

00:38:10.505 --> 00:38:11.760
I would challenge that.

00:38:11.760 --> 00:38:27.217
If we go back to, if you go back to startup mode of just being like I don't know, let, I don't know, let's just try this and it fails, whatever, we'll shut it down, then you know, visual has have you guys seen visual electric?

00:38:27.217 --> 00:38:27.659
It's basically like.

00:38:27.659 --> 00:38:31.547
It's kind of like a really easy, modern, clean, mid journey where you can go in and sort of say like, hey, I want this.

00:38:31.547 --> 00:38:46.184
Like there's a, there's a duck standing in the middle of the room, he's wearing a funny hat and he's looking out in the sunset or whatever, and it'll come up and then you can like, tweak it and refine it and make it 4k and all these sort of things.

00:38:46.204 --> 00:38:53.476
They just sort of popped up on my radar not not that long ago and, um, and then, not not long after that, they popped up discord and there's only three or four channels in there, but they're basically just people sharing some of the best art that they've done.

00:38:53.476 --> 00:39:10.563
That art then immediately turns into, uh, instagram posts and then they start sharing those instagram posts and then people are like, oh my gosh, my stuff got shared, like, and it wasn't sort of it didn't have to be this big structure, it really was just sort of, because you're going to have a certain percentage of people who are like I've never used discord.

00:39:10.603 --> 00:39:20.367
I'm not really interested in chatting about stuff, but like, but the people who are you know what I mean might get in and give you some good feedback, but you could also be like experiment done.

00:39:20.367 --> 00:39:22.090
You know, not our thing.

00:39:24.936 --> 00:39:25.559
You're right.

00:39:25.559 --> 00:39:30.545
You are right, like nothing is going to happen if it doesn't go well, or maybe it does.

00:39:30.545 --> 00:40:00.909
I think what is happening in my heart is like I don't know, like community is my favorite part of my job and I'm like protective of it a little bit, and I think that it's going to work if we do it right, like favorite part of my job and I'm like protective of it a little bit, and and I and I totally that it's going to work if we do it right, but it it feels like right now it's like there's so much stuff going on that that my fear is that it becomes something that, oh, let's just go experiment lunch and it just sort of stays there forever and then we don't really it could, it could, totally like.

00:40:00.929 --> 00:40:03.981
Let me get, let me give you a, really a really quick example, like it's, almost like.

00:40:03.981 --> 00:40:09.764
So we started thinking about this, especially when we started looking at um, at gaming.

00:40:09.764 --> 00:40:17.807
So we've got two pro gamers who are, who are basically in the uh, in here and and this is wait, I want to be in that community.

00:40:17.807 --> 00:40:20.092
Totally, I'll invite you.

00:40:20.153 --> 00:40:20.715
I'll invite you both.

00:40:21.255 --> 00:41:03.461
You can come in and we can drop memes all day long, but, like you know, and being able to share your stacks and stuff like that, but like, just so we're and I will say that, like Lexi, who's one of the programmers that we're working with to do this Rainbow six siege tournament, um also does discord, uh, configuration and setup amazing, like professionally right, this is, this is how people get you know and like start here and here's, like you know how to get started and how to share, and like the server rules and like here's you know, we're gonna start fleshing out like how to how to stack stuff, and then we're gonna do like a gaming giveaway, but like even in the in the lounge or like the food you just like launched.

00:41:03.561 --> 00:41:05.244
This is really well thought out.

00:41:05.867 --> 00:41:11.335
It's awesome yeah, but I think like, and there's nobody, there's not that many people in here, but it's one of these.

00:41:11.335 --> 00:41:11.898
We've started.

00:41:11.898 --> 00:41:16.097
We've started adding people and some people say hi and stuff like that, but I'm not that worried about it.

00:41:16.097 --> 00:41:17.902
Um, but it is interesting.

00:41:17.902 --> 00:41:19.166
Like this is Visual Electric.

00:41:19.166 --> 00:41:24.286
They just launched and literally they have an announcements oh look, oh, look at this.

00:41:24.286 --> 00:41:27.061
This is the Discord that they did in their email.

00:41:27.061 --> 00:41:27.742
Check this out.

00:41:28.543 --> 00:41:29.306
Oh, that's awesome.

00:41:29.567 --> 00:41:32.842
Oh, that's cool, and they made all that with Visual Electric.

00:41:32.842 --> 00:41:36.965
But then, like introductions, people say hi, this is Colin, he's the founder.

00:41:36.965 --> 00:41:40.717
He's like, hey, stoked to have you here.

00:41:40.717 --> 00:41:43.304
There's some inspiration so you can like get some really cool stuff that people made.

00:41:43.304 --> 00:41:47.862
This is totally made with visual electric, um, and.

00:41:47.862 --> 00:41:51.188
And then there's support and someone says hey, is things breaking?

00:41:51.188 --> 00:41:57.317
And he's like sorry, you're having this issue, we'll look at it and like it's super lightweight and it's not as fancy as ours.

00:41:57.317 --> 00:42:01.117
And you know, like this is basically what they launched.

00:42:01.257 --> 00:42:15.945
And I think what, what he's, what Colin's finding interesting is especially around this, like inspiration stuff, like to be able to sort of, you know, see people using it like this and then potentially say, you know, amazing, can I use this in social?

00:42:15.945 --> 00:42:20.516
Yeah, sure, you know, great, you're just sort of like like, but I think you could actually do it.

00:42:20.516 --> 00:42:25.317
What would be really interesting is if you opened up like and our team will totally help your team like, build it.

00:42:25.317 --> 00:42:28.724
Like is to build one and just make it a super invite.

00:42:28.724 --> 00:42:35.315
It's like 50 people and you're only having 50 people in and it's literally you don't have to even check it every five minutes.

00:42:35.315 --> 00:42:38.021
You could check it like every day and everyone gets that.

00:42:38.021 --> 00:42:41.717
The vibe is like you know that honestly sounds around.

00:42:41.858 --> 00:42:54.349
It's like you know 50 of your twitter friends on on a discord like totally and you're saying hi and like you're dropping stuff and like somebody's got a question or whatever, and you sort of start to get the vibe of what that community is.

00:42:54.349 --> 00:43:02.019
And then you let people in, sort of little by little or whatever it is, but not to not to harp on on, uh, discord, but I just think it's really interesting.

00:43:02.019 --> 00:43:24.278
Um, you know, when we think about like ideating this idea of what do you do with a sort of unstructured, untethered community, and start to figure out like how do, how do we more personally interact with you, rather than just like in tweets or in tickets or in intercom, like you know or?

00:43:24.300 --> 00:43:35.141
something like that, and it's an interesting problem to try and solve yeah, I mean, I think most of our like interactions would have, like we host a lot of in-person events, right, but like, yeah, the problem with that is that it's like not scalable.

00:43:35.141 --> 00:43:40.686
So, yeah, we get to see a hundred people when we host events in that specific city.

00:43:42.659 --> 00:43:44.324
Which is not a problem, right.

00:43:44.324 --> 00:43:48.568
It's just a limitation, right, but yeah.

00:43:50.777 --> 00:43:53.885
No, and I love going to the events and I always prioritize it when traveling.

00:43:56.916 --> 00:43:57.498
And the last one.

00:43:57.518 --> 00:44:02.365
I love the AI one and seeing stuff in real person and seeing everyone get together.

00:44:02.748 --> 00:44:24.501
I think what's really interesting is, then, and I even think about like how do you, beyond sort of Twitter responses and stuff like that, how does someone like me get more in with you all, especially around things like the beta features that are coming out, or like my experience doing it, or like, um, oh, have you ever seen Story Prompt?

00:44:24.501 --> 00:44:26.923
By the way, it's so good.

00:44:26.923 --> 00:44:32.949
It's basically this app that you can send out a link and I can send you both the link.

00:44:32.949 --> 00:44:49.081
Our link is basically like HTTPS stacklist, forward slash, love, go to that.

00:44:49.081 --> 00:45:04.527
It's me talking for like 30 seconds and I'm like hi, I would love it if you could just turn your phone like this and give me a 60 second testimonial about what you think about Sackless, and so I send it up to people and basically what I get back is people going hey, my inch tile, this is what I do and this is you know what I've been doing and I really enjoy it and and I'll get those back.

00:45:04.608 --> 00:45:40.353
And then I'll fire off like a starbucks card and be like thanks, and now I've got this like 60 second, you know video of someone saying like I love it, it's great um which is a cool different way to to sort of maybe interact with the community as well I think that really speaks to just like how, as a like how much of a natural I think you are, and and just like doing community, because, like it's not that easy to get people to take out their phone and record their faces and send you a video, like you you must have, I don't know, but built a really strong community, did some really good messaging, like it's light.

00:45:40.981 --> 00:45:43.047
It's it's light right now, but I would say it's personal.

00:45:43.047 --> 00:45:45.784
It's one of those things that, like we, we, we keep up with people.

00:45:45.784 --> 00:45:56.226
We have inter, like we installed intercom almost immediately and it probably seems like too much of an overhead for like for launching with a site that already has a fully fleshed out intercom.

00:45:56.226 --> 00:46:04.168
But I've enjoyed being able to like we have this one person that came on who just started posting like an intercom this doesn't work and that doesn't work and whatever.

00:46:04.579 --> 00:46:06.909
Jack, if you're watching this, like I love you.

00:46:06.909 --> 00:46:10.425
But we started going back and forth and then I sent him a.

00:46:10.425 --> 00:46:16.543
I knew he was in australia and I sent him a gift card for, like, food delivery in australia.

00:46:16.543 --> 00:46:21.947
And now we go back and forth and he's like hey, I like the new thing that you just launched and like I like this other thing that you launched or whatever.

00:46:21.947 --> 00:46:30.592
But like, trying to find that like two-way, I think is an interesting thing, without it becoming overwhelming or having to like build up a whole team to like manage it.

00:46:30.592 --> 00:46:38.822
But that's, I guess that's the thing is figuring out how you can sort of keep it personal without having to, like, you know, a bunch of overhead have you tried click?

00:46:40.425 --> 00:46:45.293
no it can help, it's just oh really yeah, it's a really cool tool.

00:46:45.434 --> 00:46:56.568
It helps you manage relationships and with ai, oh so it's like a crm, but like basically for like all your twitters and linkedins and emails, and so it'll tell you, like you know, if you have.

00:46:56.568 --> 00:47:05.250
If somebody like sends you like a calendar invite and you're not sure like who they are, like you could even ask like when was the last time I talked to them, or whatever, and they'll say like oh, you tweeted or you see this.

00:47:05.250 --> 00:47:09.483
So it's really helpful oh, amazing I am.

00:47:09.943 --> 00:47:22.608
By the way, I, when I see stuff like this and the tools that I think you and danny did one right with, like the tools and I was writing back, I was like I'm I'm basically gonna sit here for the next two hours signing up for all these and like trying them.

00:47:22.608 --> 00:47:23.211
I do that.

00:47:23.211 --> 00:47:25.704
I sign up for everything and I try everything.

00:47:25.704 --> 00:47:27.213
Oh, I love it.

00:47:27.213 --> 00:47:41.400
I'm sure my email address is like that's why it's on the dark web is because I sign up for everything on the whole planet but I love this like literally signing up for clay right now um kyle I, I have one question for you.

00:47:41.621 --> 00:47:52.817
I um, yeah, I'm curious about your, uh, content vision for the company and, like, what are the types of things that you like to share and where you really see your storytelling going?

00:47:52.817 --> 00:47:56.010
Like, what are the types of things that you really are drawn to?

00:47:56.110 --> 00:48:07.244
I think Danny and I even talked about this once, about startup, alex from the podcast Startup, which really to me was one of those first early, which really to me was one of those first early.

00:48:07.244 --> 00:48:09.110
What was the other podcast that really took off?

00:48:09.110 --> 00:48:16.233
The one about Anand Syed, the guy that was locked up?

00:48:16.233 --> 00:48:19.387
Oh my gosh, it was this American Life.

00:48:19.387 --> 00:48:20.726
They did a podcast.

00:48:20.726 --> 00:48:28.148
It was basically Startup and this other podcast and they both just went nuts and it was the early podcast era.

00:48:28.148 --> 00:48:41.322
But startup was so great because even the first episode it was basically alex like leaving his full-time job and being like I think I'm gonna start a podcast and he records every single sort of like interaction.

00:48:41.322 --> 00:48:43.248
So he goes home and he actually records the interaction.

00:48:43.268 --> 00:49:03.663
It's a great episode where he goes with his wife being like I'm quitting and I'm starting a podcast company and she's like uh, okay, um, like, and you're just getting that sort of raw kind of feeling and I think what I really like is coming from big agencies and and consultancies and things like that.

00:49:03.663 --> 00:49:22.608
I just know there's much, there's so much like political and bullshit and like all, just all sorts of like stuff, and I think what I love is when you rip all that stuff away and you get into being an entrepreneur and you're starting up a small company and you're being part of it.

00:49:22.608 --> 00:49:27.987
You get rid of all that stuff and it's just like being a kid again when you're like playing with Legos or whatever.

00:49:27.987 --> 00:49:33.166
There is no like the hierarchy and the level and the politicals, and you know what does the partner think about this?

00:49:33.643 --> 00:49:46.190
And like, and there's just all these sort of things that you can literally do what you two have been doing, which is just experimenting, having your owl lab experiments right and not having someone go like, excuse me, what's he doing and how much revenue is that driving?

00:49:46.231 --> 00:49:46.731
You know what I mean.

00:49:46.771 --> 00:49:48.452
And whatever that it's like no, no, no, no, let's.

00:49:48.452 --> 00:49:55.976
Let's like let's play and try and see and do, because that's like the lab is the only way that you end up innovating on stuff like that.

00:49:56.536 --> 00:50:54.027
And so for me it's more about maybe just trying to get better at doing that kind of content really quickly and easily, hopefully to sort of share to people who who because I've been in this place for a long, long time where, even as I did acting and improv like in in past lives, um, but I never got good at doing this, which was just like here's- me and I'm just talking about it and I'm not in my head worrying about like a script or what I'm saying or like having it be polished or whatever it is, and I think the transparency of the ups and the downs and like building something and like trying to build something, hopefully would help someone else who would potentially be like I think I want to try something you know, what I mean, or I think I might want to record myself, or I want to document something, or I want to build a company and see where it goes, and so hopefully, the authenticity authenticity and the transparency are the two things that end up coming through the stuff we do from a content perspective.

00:50:56.052 --> 00:50:56.291
Cool.

00:50:58.161 --> 00:50:58.842
Oh, it did it.

00:50:58.842 --> 00:51:01.509
It did it, do I get?

00:51:01.530 --> 00:51:02.030
one Hold on.

00:51:03.019 --> 00:51:05.289
Sometimes the contrast has to be just right.

00:51:05.289 --> 00:51:07.788
Or maybe mine's return off.

00:51:07.788 --> 00:51:08.661
What would?

00:51:08.661 --> 00:51:10.746
Um, I would love to know.

00:51:10.746 --> 00:51:38.606
Oh, I, would like to know, um, like I know we're going to come up on time here in a minute, so I would love to know from y'all's perspective, like from the outside in, if you had, if each of you had, just one recommendation from, from a stackless perspective what what would it be, even just from like a story perspective, or how it's perceived, or how it's like knowing what it does and and where we potentially could be like what would your, what would your thing be?

00:51:39.108 --> 00:51:43.831
we can all take a moment of quiet reflection too, like if there's people driving, they can.

00:51:43.831 --> 00:51:52.182
We can just take a break from this podcast, because we're all gonna just sit here for a minute, so don't worry, like you don't change the channel, but I mean, I think you're doing, like, all the right things.

00:51:52.463 --> 00:51:59.101
Like I, um, I see you're like doing a lot of founder-led sort of like content.

00:51:59.101 --> 00:52:00.085
You're being active.

00:52:00.085 --> 00:52:02.090
You're on twitter, you've got the discord.

00:52:02.090 --> 00:52:07.731
Like you're sharing your product in a way that uh makes people want to see and find out and it's fun.

00:52:07.731 --> 00:52:10.384
Like I think you're all doing all all those things.

00:52:10.384 --> 00:52:28.673
Um, I don't know, maybe one, one little thing I guess could be like, ah, like, sometimes it's not super clear to me like the I like, am I the ideal user for stack list?

00:52:28.673 --> 00:52:31.601
Is ian the ideal user for stack list?

00:52:31.601 --> 00:52:46.184
Like, I think that there's so many possibilities that some specificity or help for your different personas or use cases I think it's harder because my vision also is who's the ideal person for facebook?

00:52:46.425 --> 00:52:48.070
right, thank, thank everybody.

00:52:48.451 --> 00:52:51.692
People, right, and so it's one of those things that I don't.

00:52:51.692 --> 00:53:03.789
It's not out of the realm of possibility in my mind that like people who save and share links yeah, are the people that I would like people who use browsers would be like, would be like my ideal persona.

00:53:03.789 --> 00:53:07.724
But because and there's a reason for this is because I think one of the things is broken.

00:53:07.724 --> 00:53:13.460
Just just take a second look around your room and name a thing that doesn't have to do with a link.

00:53:13.460 --> 00:53:14.864
Do you know what I mean?

00:53:14.864 --> 00:53:18.762
The stuff that you've curated in your life and the things that you like.

00:53:18.762 --> 00:53:20.887
This is my favorite coffee mug by fellow.

00:53:20.887 --> 00:53:25.425
It fits in the back of my jeans pocket and it doesn't like spill and I can throw it in my book bag.

00:53:25.425 --> 00:53:28.733
When somebody says, oh my gosh, that's cool, so can you send that to me?

00:53:28.733 --> 00:53:32.851
It's like can you just Google hello?

00:53:32.851 --> 00:53:39.552
And there's this barrier where I want to make it that I'm like oh yeah, hold on one second.

00:53:39.552 --> 00:54:12.788
Oh, I just texted it to you and you've got it, and then you can save it, and then you have that thing and we have this ability to share this moment of like, of sharing something, and I think it's about people who everyone curates their lives, so being able to sort of really easily and quickly like curate your life and then share it with other people is the ideal person I love that message curate your life because we do every day but you can't actually like name the last trip you went on like and then send me the top 10 places that you went on that trip uh, take me forever, I don't know

00:54:14.351 --> 00:54:15.414
you'd be like in your head.

00:54:15.414 --> 00:54:28.349
You immediately go to this like 20 minute session where you have to sit down and like open a google doc and like do a bunch of research or whatever, and and instead of that you can go to my profile and um, it's stacklessapp forward, slash, kyle.

00:54:28.349 --> 00:54:39.471
At about halfway down there's my 2014 venice trip, which was one of my favorite trips ever, and you can just save all the places that I went like that yeah sort of like that's the thing that I want to.

00:54:39.471 --> 00:54:40.211
I want to.

00:54:40.251 --> 00:54:46.860
It's like letting people know there's a better way to well in content, I think also is one of those things.

00:54:46.940 --> 00:54:58.161
There's something else that can be paired with content content when you look at my Instagram profile, if you just, if you don't click into each video, if you just look at the thumbnails, if you didn't know me, tell me what I'm into and what my favorite things are.

00:54:58.161 --> 00:55:04.344
You can't do it because it's all sort of this like it's this, like in the moment, that sort of so.

00:55:04.344 --> 00:55:14.545
Now, if you go to my seconds profile and you go through, you're like oh, he's into photo and video and this is his like baffle music playlist and this is like he's into these books and this is like his travel stuff, or whatever.

00:55:14.545 --> 00:55:18.581
You get this like more holistic 360 view of someone.

00:55:18.581 --> 00:55:37.893
That gives you the ability then to be like I'm also into that, or I'm also into you know, or, or have something to discuss, versus what I think about when I think about a traditional sort of link in bio or or any of those sort of things where it's literally just like here's my discount codes, please sign up for my newsletter winnie, should we share jam's profile?

00:55:39.458 --> 00:55:42.525
oh, yeah, yeah, jams, let me, let me here.

00:55:42.525 --> 00:55:43.005
I got it.

00:55:43.005 --> 00:55:49.500
Uh, oh, I have it, look, and I have it in one of my 2000 browser tabs.

00:55:50.041 --> 00:56:07.530
I think I'm thinking of my one thing for you and Stackless and I think basically, stackless feels like a foundational step is having a knowledge gap and that, like I want to know this thing about you and I want to know what these links are.

00:56:07.530 --> 00:56:14.760
And for me, I think about, like me, knowing my favorite creators, the tools, like, for example, all the stuff they use in their studio.

00:56:14.760 --> 00:56:37.581
That's like a very strong knowledge gap, and so the question is how can I, how can I identify what those gaps are in my, in my life, and what's the like compelling way to have that answer be a stack list, and so for me like as I think about, like, like you, I love tech reviewers because I want to know their gear recommendations.

00:56:38.103 --> 00:56:43.081
I love outdoor creators because I want to know the places that they know that are around me.

00:56:43.081 --> 00:57:09.132
I want to know who are, who are the domain experts and how do we get their domain of expertise as a knowledge gap that's solved through stack list and so, totally, I think who, identifying who those, who those specific people are and like they just feel so, like, so important to this, to solving this question, and so I guess that's where my mind runs.

00:57:09.432 --> 00:57:11.423
I love that like I even think about you from.

00:57:11.423 --> 00:57:15.021
I love your personal content around, like running and and things like that.

00:57:15.021 --> 00:57:21.586
I think about like best running paths or or best running gear or things like that, and how you would actually connect up with.

00:57:21.586 --> 00:57:35.152
It's different following an Instagram, like an Instagram profile where you're watching someone else make content, versus if you also had something to pair with it, where you could literally save all their favorite stuff.

00:57:35.152 --> 00:58:01.242
And then imagine what's going to happen here soon is you're going to follow one of your favorite runners on Instagram and you're going to follow their running gear list and then when someone adds a new pair of shoes or a new like tech gear running tech gear to that list, you're going to get a little notification that goes like hey, they added this thing and it compresses the amount of time that it took to get that thing that they just curated to you.

00:58:01.242 --> 00:58:08.090
And then you get to sort of like try it or decide if it's something that you want to try and if it's your favorite thing that you then end up sharing out.

00:58:08.090 --> 00:58:14.547
So it's like it's like cutting through all of these different sort of layers of of being able to just share stuff with people.

00:58:14.940 --> 00:58:15.481
I'm going to show that.

00:58:15.481 --> 00:58:23.007
I'm going to show the jam and Jam stacks and I love what you were just saying Even, even, in like.

00:58:23.007 --> 00:58:27.951
If you go to mine and I have like a travel essentials and books and my New York favorites and stuff like that.

00:58:27.951 --> 00:58:30.813
I have a like photo and video gear like.

00:58:30.813 --> 00:58:35.295
Here's my and this Leica, so forth is amazing.

00:58:35.295 --> 00:58:42.608
By the way, it's sitting over here on the on the on the um shelf with me but this is a Polaroid and basically what you do is point and shoot and you don't.

00:58:42.608 --> 00:58:43.992
It doesn't print every time.

00:58:43.992 --> 00:58:53.710
You only decide when you want to print a Polaroid and then it saves it on like a flash drive and you can print the Polaroids from the camera, which is amazing.

00:58:53.771 --> 00:59:05.512
So, but like being able to, yeah, totally so, like, so like there's a screen on the back and you can basically take it and be like, yeah, that's a good one, and then press a button and the Polaroid comes out.

00:59:05.512 --> 00:59:09.583
And so the second I shared this like this video is like.

00:59:09.583 --> 00:59:21.402
It's like the one video that went like viral is not the right, right word, it had the sniffles, but like it went a little bit like somewhere, um, just because that was such an interesting thing.

00:59:21.402 --> 00:59:37.210
And then I basically linked people to this and of all the stuff I've ever shared, that one card is the one that gets like the most you know interest, and so for me to understand that and know sort of why and how that that happens is is really interesting um and so for.

00:59:37.329 --> 00:59:46.789
Imagine, like ian, if you follow this list and I add a couple more things now, we sort of have this little thing that we sort of can talk about, like you know, similar interests on on like tech gear.

00:59:46.789 --> 00:59:50.755
Uh, so jam.

00:59:50.755 --> 00:59:55.168
Oh, I was actually I was showing, who was I showing?

00:59:55.168 --> 01:00:09.603
Oh, I was on the phone with someone from introcom and I was showing them a stack list and I jammed by the way, I jammed the site in real time to show them jams so that I tried to introduce jam to introcom.

01:00:10.266 --> 01:00:29.643
So, by the way, if rad and team start using jam, I'm just I'm not saying I'm taking credit, but I sort of am so yeah so here it is, here's the here's the jam profile, so totally.

01:00:29.643 --> 01:00:33.489
And yeah, so here it is, here's the jam profile, so totally.

01:00:33.489 --> 01:00:36.833
And look, we've got some Ian down here too doing his thing.

01:00:37.054 --> 01:00:37.894
Doing the thing, yeah.

01:00:38.880 --> 01:00:55.300
And I think what's so interesting that what we're also trying to sort of, what we're hypothesizing but we're still pushing into, is that this is what most people kind of get confronted with right in that sort of link in by and link in bio is only really one small part of of what we're doing.

01:00:55.340 --> 01:01:16.393
But this is how I kind of think about it, that from a personality who are, who is ellie and what does she do this is kind of most of the time what we get versus like oh, let's explode some of that out first and then sort of create a little little nano networks around this stuff.

01:01:16.452 --> 01:01:31.967
Imagine that the dev utilities if you all kept adding to it and that you had comments on here and we had likes and you could tell which one was the most popular and you could also tell that the base 64 encoder sat in 160 accounts.01:01:31.967 --> 01:01:35.153


That would sort of give you signal about this.01:01:35.153 --> 01:01:40.880


But it would also be one of those things that like again, I don't have to have a blog post with all this stuff on it.01:01:40.880 --> 01:01:43.063


I've actually just got this right here.01:01:43.063 --> 01:02:00.512


So when I want to pull that up again, I go here in the Chrome extension and I can type base 64 and just get that encoder and click it and start using it and so like it just sort of shortcuts, how how you can kind of get to some of that stuff.01:02:01.021 --> 01:02:05.563


And not just like how you can get to it, but also like how you can create it, like it's so easy to create a little card.01:02:05.583 --> 01:02:07.650


like yeah, um.01:02:07.650 --> 01:02:25.119


And then also I think one of the things we've been seeing is people being able to bubble up some of their content and have it live on right, that you can pick something from a year ago and have it up here and be featured, or that someone else could see something like a podcast episode and save it into the same account.01:02:25.119 --> 01:02:39.067


They would save their recipes and their favorite books or whatever it is that this piece of content sort of now lives on in my account kind of longer than it normally would if I kind of forgot about episode 25.01:02:39.067 --> 01:02:48.672


So you're also sort of giving content and links and like um, a longer lifespan um than than it might have had before it's very cool, it's like.01:02:49.014 --> 01:02:57.844


It's like a a combination of ways of consuming content and sharing content that we all know, but combining them all it's like and sure it's like new.01:02:57.844 --> 01:03:02.621


It's a new way to share well, we're pushing in that direction.01:03:02.760 --> 01:03:05.623


This is this is us, this is how we're building Sackless.01:03:05.623 --> 01:03:14.195


We're just pushing in this direction and luckily you all are around us and we're like are we doing it right?01:03:14.195 --> 01:03:21.038


And I appreciate you all coming in and help us figure out if we're headed in the right direction and kind of talking about it.01:03:22.041 --> 01:03:22.963


Thanks so much, Kyle.01:03:24.429 --> 01:03:34.184


Yeah Well, thanks for jumping on, uh, and sorry I copied the podcast name, um, but we love it.01:03:34.184 --> 01:03:36.989


No, it's great it's great.01:03:37.411 --> 01:03:38.552


Wait, we need to get the.01:03:38.552 --> 01:03:39.454


We need to do like a.01:03:39.454 --> 01:03:41.963


I guess this is we've done.01:03:41.963 --> 01:03:44.728


No, we need to do a crossover pod now.01:03:44.728 --> 01:03:46.592


Jam stack list.01:03:46.592 --> 01:03:51.009


You need to come on the building, damn lot jamming the stack list.01:03:51.351 --> 01:03:53.860


Hold on, we also need, I think we need, is we need, a screenshot?01:03:53.860 --> 01:04:00.052


Uh, hold on, let's see, here we go, get your best, your best podcasting pose I don't know.01:04:00.099 --> 01:04:01.818


Oh, yeah, yeah, no, you should hold it.01:04:01.929 --> 01:04:06.331


You should hold it up, here we go.01:04:06.331 --> 01:04:09.998


This is oh, yeah, yeah, no, you should hold it up, here we go.01:04:09.998 --> 01:04:12.467


Great, okay, there's the thumbnail.01:04:12.467 --> 01:04:18.684


Amazing, but seriously thanks for jumping on and I love these sort of discussions.01:04:18.684 --> 01:04:24.331


You know just kind of exploring and talking and getting y'all's feedback and also understanding.01:04:24.331 --> 01:04:29.264


You know kind of y'all's journey from when you started to what you're making and where it's headed.01:04:29.264 --> 01:04:30.346


So I appreciate it.01:04:30.827 --> 01:04:31.809


Thanks, Kyle Thanks.01:04:32.251 --> 01:04:35.800


Amazing, it's been really awesome Thanks for having us on.01:04:35.840 --> 01:04:37.601


Good seeing you, you, you you.