Martina & Denzil - Building an Inclusive Company Culture in Tech

Freedom and responsibility are just like the themes that are most important to me.

All the teams that I worked in, only one of them had one more female coworker.

Or they're at more female led companies because there's just more women around, so they feel more comfortable. And I think being comfortable at work does affect how successful you will be there. Hey. Hi.

Hi. Hi. Nice to meet you. I listened to your podcast with Kyle, and it was so refreshing, so honest. And I really love love it.

That's awesome. I'm settled. That's fine. I really do appreciate you taking the time, talking with me and just, you know, contributing to this podcast.

Of course. I'm very happy to be here, and it's very nice to meet you as well.

Likewise. Definitely. Last I mean, I've been recording this entire time. Hope that's okay. We'll cut the parts, of course.

It's always, the fun part when nobody knows it's recording. So

No. I've used your stream before, so I always, like, I always assume as soon as I'm online, it's, it's recording.

It's a go. Yeah. It's a go. Definitely. Cool.

So I was thinking about easing to conversation to start with your journey. What what did you find so thrilling in development that you find yourself in that branch?

Yeah. It's a great question. I fell in love with coding when I was 6 years old. I went to, like, a computer science class at my school, and it was with logo, which I don't know if you've heard of logo, but it's it's a programming language for kids. It has a turtle that you give commands to, and then the turtle moves around the screen.

And I fell in love with it. I was like, wow. This is awesome. It makes so much sense. It's so logical.

I said I was 6, but I think it was actually closer to 7 or 8. And it was, like, life changing as an experience for me. And I remember, like, just loving it so much and then other people being so confused, and I was like, no. It makes so much sense. So I came home, and I was like, I love coding.

I wanna be a software engineer. I think that's what I wanna do. And my dad works in tech, and so he was like, oh, that's so cool. And my mom was like, I don't want you to be a software engineer. What about a doctor or a lawyer?

And I was like, I don't know if I wanna be those things. And so then I kind of, like, pursued a lot of different interests, through middle school, through high school, but I always took computer science classes whenever they were available to me. I was very privileged and lucky to have access to those types of courses, at a young age. And it kind of sprung me into, MIT where I was like, okay. This is what I wanna pursue.

I've never found anything that I loved more than this. Like, I I tried a lot of different internships in biology and biotech. I've tried a lot of internships in law. I really tried a lot of careers, but I always found myself coming back to coding and to tech. And my first job out of college was, at Microsoft.

And I still wasn't sure if I wanted to be a full time software engineer. So I started in product actually as a PM at, PowerPoint, but realized that I missed coding, started teaching coding on the side at San Francisco State and Foothill College and ended up being like, no. I should probably just be a full time software engineer. And so then I, switched to that at Microsoft but at a different product, Yammer, which is a precursor to LinkedIn or Slack for Microsoft. Nice.

What a journey. I mean, congrats. Like, it's amazing that you actually had the privilege of, you know, being able to take the courses and dive deep into what interests you. And how was your journey when okay. You actually started coding.

You got to the the position you wanted to. You spent time in development and so on. What was your journey from that point onwards like? How did you see yourself in that position, and how did you progress?

As a as a software engineer, I I definitely came into it being like, I'm I'm not sure if I'm, like, the right fit, if I fit the molds. And I definitely had a lot of imposter syndrome at every step of the way. Even though I was coding, I didn't know how to code. I I do know how to, like, solve problems, and a lot of coding is less about the actual code. And it's about, okay, how do you solve this problem that you're you're tackling?

And and then the rest is learning frameworks. It's learning the newest, tech stack. It's understanding the newest changes in the technology, and that's something that everyone kind of has even putting on. Everyone needs to be doing that research, reading that documentation, figuring out what are the newest libraries, whether you're an experienced coder or whether you're a junior coder. And the more you get yourself into that mindset as a junior coder, like, I should read this documentation, and I should understand how the library's creators wanted the library to be used, that's how you learn best practices.

That's how you become a better coder. And a lot of experienced senior coders are senior because they're experienced. It's not that they have anything special other than maybe a love for coding. And so I think I didn't really understand that as a 22 year old, 23 year old first coming into a big tech company and trying to figure out how do I fit into this team. And I wish I'd learned that earlier in my own coding journey that it's really about understanding how you're using the platforms that you're using.

And it's about being curious and hungry, and it's not about some innate talent that you just have. Yeah. I couldn't agree more. Like, when I was starting, also what I tell now younger people is always ask questions.

There is no dumb question. You know? When you see something that doesn't make sense, that you don't understand, just ask. I mean, don't ask right away. Try exploring for maybe 30 minutes or so.

But if it doesn't go further than that, then you have to ask. But yeah. And when you stepped into some of more senior leadership roles and, when you progressed further in your career, how did you experience, you know, maybe from a women's standpoint? Did you have more of imposter syndrome? And great that you actually tackle that topic because it's one of my, next questions.

Because most people do have imposter syndrome, and that's fine. But I think that women tend to have it more and especially leadership roles, like, in tech industry. Am I good enough? Is

it you know, it can sneak up on us. I a 100% agree. And I think, you know, the reason why I definitely felt it and why probably a lot of women feel it is that you don't see anyone else like you. Or if you do, it's like one person or one person that she's 5 or 6 levels ahead of you. And so it's really hard to have that comparison, and so I I definitely think that was my experience as well.

There was only one other woman on my direct software engineering team. And so and she was more experienced than me, and she had a decade worth of more experience than I did. And so I loved seeing her and seeing where I could be in 10 years, but I also really didn't understand how she got there and how I could get there as well. And so I think that was why I probably had some imposter syndrome around, like, okay. Like, how can I be that good at this job?

But, also, I had imposter syndrome, I think, around, like not imposter syndrome, but I also had, like, doubt around whether this is the right career for me. Because when you don't see other people that look like you or are on the same trajectory as you, it makes it really hard to understand whether you'll still like the job and be satisfied and fulfilled, and so then you're questioning that part of it as well. And I realized, I think, like, much later in my life, like, in my late, twenties when I started my own company that imposter syndrome never goes away. It is always there, and everyone has it as you said. And so I wasn't alone in feeling those feelings.

I think I was just feeling them in with more intensity given the situation that I was in. I think what made the biggest difference for me was that mindset shift that imposter syndrome is always there. Everyone is feeling it, and all it means, all it takes to take a imposter syndrome and shift it to a growth mindset is you're telling yourself, I can't do this. But the real answer is, I can't do this yet. I can do some research and figure it out myself.

I can ask questions from someone who's willing to answer my questions, but I have to put myself out there. I have to, like, find the resources. I can change my current ability to match the ability I want to have, and I think that's gonna be true no matter what career you choose, what position you're at, what everyone else around you is saying. At the end of the day, it's all about your mindset and willing to change it and to continuously grow and learn.

Yeah. Definitely. And I would just add to that maybe that you really have to be firm. You know? You don't let, all of the comments get into your head because, otherwise, you're doomed.

But, yeah, I agree with everything that you said. And I would say for me, it was mostly you don't see other women in that position. As I said, throughout my journey as a freelancer, all the teams that I worked in, only one of them had one more, female coworker. So all of them were men. So I entered the the dailies, the weeklies, everything, you know, Zoom full of men.

And then you question, like, yeah. Is this is this for me? Is am I in the right path or not? And I would just like to ask, on that journey, when you started to get into more serious roles, did you experience, just because of the fact that you're a female, some undermining, some mean comments, I don't know, something that made you feel, you know,

I mean, I definitely faced discrimination in different ways over the years, not necessarily at Microsoft. I really don't think I I did there unless it was, like, something subconscious or unconscious, but I, like, personally was never I never felt like I couldn't thrive as a woman at Microsoft. I feel like I was very well supported, and I think they did a really great job both when I was there as an intern and as a full time employee. But I think once starting my own start up and, going out to raise money or going out to try to convince someone to invest in me, I definitely feel like it it makes sense to me why less than 2% of venture funding goes to women because there's a lot of subconscious bias, and it's so subjective at the early stage that I think, you know, you have to you have to be aware that the numbers that you see in front of you affect how you present yourself. It affects your self confidence.

It affects how people perceive you, and then it affects how they assess you as a risk to invest in. And so I definitely feel like that is something that can only be changed because it's so subconscious maybe by having more women attempting to go out and raise money to start their own companies to show that there's a lot of us that are interested in doing this, they are passionate about doing this, and that are capable of doing it.

Yeah. That's true. So your experience as a developer before you started your your own company is, only through Microsoft?

Yes. Only at Microsoft. And then I went to business school, and then I went straight into, starting my own company. I did other things in between. Like, I interned with a lawyer.

I worked at, like, a smart city strategy. I did other things, sometimes related to tech, but those were my big career milestones. Nice. Nice.

And then when you started your your own company, I guess, from the beginning, you were the 1 man show 1 man band, so you you did everything. And then when you started to grow, when you hired first developer maybe, how did you think about it? Maybe having a even ratio between men and female in the but it's hard because as you said, there is no that many female developers who would like to join and who pursue this career. So how do you think about that? And what did you do to encourage young women to to pursue actually tech careers?

It's a great question. I think when I was going into hiring for my start up, I really didn't know what I was doing. It was my first time, like, trying to hire. I'd done job interviews before at Microsoft, but it I'd never really obviously hired for my own team, and it's very, very different. And so I didn't know what to prioritize.

I was prioritizing speed and getting someone to come on to the team as fast as possible instead of prioritizing quality or maybe a long term fit. And I think it is a lot better for an aspiring founder to do it yourself and find the right coworker than to hire someone and then fire them and hire someone again. It's just wasted time otherwise. You should really, like, take the time to find figure out what you're looking for and then find the right person to do that for you. And then in terms of thinking about gender, when I was hiring, I'm sure I thought about it, all the time.

My first couple of developer hires were men, and it was just what was available to me, what access I had, given the given my price range, given my, my needs. And so it really did, like, limit how quickly I was finding people and who I was finding. And so I'm sure I thought about it at at the time around how the gender balance was off. I'm like, I I do, like, remember being in a meeting where there were, like, 5 other male developers, and then there was just me, who had just hired all of them. And so, obviously, like, I do sometimes think about that.

I wonder if that's why and I'm I'm genuinely thinking about this right now in this moment. Like, that's why I enjoy being async, so often and really only having stand ups with, like, our one head of engineering, via video call or voice call because it's so much easier to just communicate when you're not, like, faced with that, like, I guess, like, gender disparity or any sort of disparity. It's you do it at your own time, and you respond the way that you wanna respond, and there's no pressure. There's no other, I guess, like, psycho psychological, question there. I don't know.

I've never thought about that before, but I guess I do lean more towards a sync communication at our company. And I wonder if, like, that helps with that gender disparity because then I never really think about it or see it face to face, like, when you were in a Zoom call and you're the only woman on the call and it's video on. So that's interesting to think about now. And in terms of, like, how I thought about, like, gender on our team, I really did it. I didn't have that many people to, like, like, hire from, so just the influx of people coming in, wasn't that many.

But we did have a, female front end engineer who actually was really good at design and product as well. And so over time, she shifted more to those roles, but then it was so great that she also had a technical background because then she could work with the engineers, and she understood time requirements. And she was an amazing, amazing employee. She actually moved on to another company now, but I I miss working with her. I miss having her on the team.

Yeah. I bet. But that always happens somehow. I don't know why. But, female always tend to be more on the front end and design part of stuff and then move focus to product.

But I would really love to encourage more more women to go, you know, maybe full stack back end, whatever. It's so thrilling. I mean, solving problems is is always nice. But, yeah, those biases do exist, and I do agree it's most of them are unconscious. So I don't think that they do it on purpose.

It's just, you know, the the balance in the industry is not is not right. We need definitely, we need more women.

Yes. I I think it is a numbers thing. I think it's like the more women you see, the more you're likely to stay in your space. The more likely you're able to see yourself investing in yourself in back end and creating a career there 5, 10 years from now versus feeling like you're going to be pigeonholed into the space that might be really toxic for you in 5 or 10 years. I think it's I think that it the numbers and seeing that representation is what makes the biggest difference, And so investing early in a team to build that culture is the most important thing you can do.

Yeah. Yeah. I agree. But also from the women perspective, I think it's important to call it out. You know?

We don't have to spend some of the comments or even if if it's unconscious, but still, I think it's it's time to call it out and say, okay. That's not appropriate, and we can move on. It doesn't have to be any repercussions, but eventually, if the person is not willing to change the style or communication, then maybe it's not the environment I want to stay in.

I completely agree. I think I wish I'd learned that earlier in life. It is so important to understand your boundaries and set them. And when something triggers you or something affects you or if a comment makes you feel uncomfortable, you don't have to be mean. You can acknowledge how you feel and let them know, I didn't I don't like the way that you said that, or I feel that my opinion isn't being heard or I or finding these ways to express yourself and make sure that you are setting those boundaries.

And it it is tough when you first start to do it, but you're setting yourself up for success. And I will say that all of the, like, women that I know that have had really, like, a lot of success, in a back end or a full stack role, they tend to be at either bigger companies where there is so much more representation, or they're at more female led companies because there's just more women around, so they feel more comfortable in the space that they are in. And I think being comfortable at work does affect how successful you will be there. And I think if you're at a small company where you're the first woman on the team or you're one of very few people on your team, setting those boundaries is, is so important because you're setting up that culture for yourself. You're investing in yourself and your long term success at that company.

And so you have to you have to speak up. And it it's a burden, but it's a

Yeah. No. It's so important. Because at the beginning, when I started freelancing, you know, it's it's a male male world. And then I would ask myself, okay.

Am I exaggerating? Should I speak up or not? Is it all in my head? Should I escalate this? You know, a lot of questions pops into your mind, like, am I the crazy one or what's happening?

But then I ask myself, k. How is it normal that we are on a Zoom call regarding a product and somebody texts me in my DM, hey. You are cute. Like

Oh my god. So inappropriate. Like, no one is asking for that. I how I I don't know how you handle that situation, but that actually happened to me as well at an investor meeting. And I think it's just so inappropriate.

Like, like, who are you and so entitled? Anyway, I'm so sorry. And on your own team, like, that's so uncomfortable. You have to report that when that happens.

That time, I I did. My response was not good.

Okay. Mine too is true. In my case.

Yeah. I'm not prepared for that. You know, you're on a meeting talking about product or in your case on VC fundraising or whatever, and you're not prepared to to have that sentence come at you. Like, what?

Yeah. I was, I've I'm still very feminist, but in, Microsoft when I was working there, I would write a lot of feminist articles, on Medium and on my blog at that time, and I was very, like, very I used to write posts about this about how if that happened to you, you need to be very direct and say, like, I'm not interested in you because of you, not I'm not interested in you because I have a partner or I'm not interested in you This is the wrong situation. I was very I always used to advocate, like, you have to be very direct and, like, set those boundaries, and that was, like, my perspective, when I was at Microsoft. And so when it happened to me, I I was, like, much later in my career and, I was much older, And I didn't say anything because I thought to myself the investor world is so small, and it's so, I don't know how it will affect me if I'm if I am more direct. And if I took my principles and applied them in this situation, it might hurt me later in my career or later in my life, and I didn't want to risk that.

And that made me feel horrible in that moment because I was like, I have values. I have principles. I know how I would handle the situation if I didn't have to be strategic or political or think about, like, the impact my actions might have, and that, I think, is, like, the the worst feeling in the world.

Yeah. I totally agree. It's it's something that we shouldn't be put through and have to deal with that because, I mean, maybe some men go through the same. I wouldn't I wouldn't neck neglect that, but I think the the ratio between that feeling, for women and men is much much higher for women. And it's so unfair.

I agree. And maybe that's the reason why, young women don't go into the industry because of, yes, it's male dominant. Yes, you will get comments, and you don't want to deal with that. But as you said, like, you have to put your boundaries. You have to call it out, and, you have to know where you stand.

But sometimes it's really easier to say than do.

100%. I that's why, it is so important for a company to create an environment and a safe space where women have the opportunity to address those concerns when they are, when when concerning things happen. So, like, if that had happened to me at Microsoft, I would have definitely felt much safer taking that to HR or taking that to my manager and saying like, hey. This happened to me, and it made me feel really uncomfortable. But then when I was starting my own company, there is no HR to protect me.

There's no, I don't know, independent organization of, like, investors that I can complain to and say like, hey. This happened to me. And so that's why I think it's really important at a company, regardless of gender, there's so many other types of discrimination that are out there to set up a safe space for your employees to bring up concerns so that you can create the culture that you want at your company so that you can create long standing, safe environments and thrive as you grow. And I think a lot of companies don't think about culture until it's too late. And if you're a 300 person company, you're not gonna be able to change your company's culture.

You have to be setting up those foundations when you're a 10 person company, when you're a 5 person company. I think if you are a woman at a 5 person company and you're feeling that toxic environment, then you have to start to set those boundaries to talk about how do you set up that safe space, not just to help you, but to also help a future employee that will get hired, whether they're a woman or a man, whether there's so many types of discrimination out there, and you have to be part of setting up that right culture. And if upper management isn't listening to you, then they're never going to listen to you, and you should probably find a better space for yourself.

Definitely. 100% agree. And did you maybe sometimes get a comment that would just, you know, sparkle the fire in USA. No. No.

This is not happening, and I will, show you how good of developer I am and how good I am. I I will just show you. I will not respond. I will show you with my actions that you don't have a step you don't stand the chance.

Yes. All the time, especially with some bad hires that I had. I was like I was like, why is this taking a week? And then I'll do a PR in, like, 3 hours and say, like, like, what why was this taking so long? And, you know, like, that's a great reason to be technical, when you're starting your own thing or when you're going into a career to make sure that you enjoy the skill set it needs and, like, love it because then it's much easier to respond to things sometimes by showing instead of demanding or telling.

And I think I went through my own journey around, like, knowing who to hire and what to look for, and that's it's very tough. Like, until you do it, I think it's hard to know.

No. Definitely. It's really hard to know the person you're hiring, until he or she starts working, and then you see the culture that person brings with them. It's impossible, I would say. I mean, you can do some preliminary, you know, but it's not that when when person starts to actually do the work, then you know, okay.

It's a good fit, the restaurant. But, yeah, definitely, I like to to show by by actions as well. That that's like the next level. You know? 1st level is calling it out.

Okay. But second level, it looks like, okay. This is how it's done. Let me show you.

Yeah. It's the best feeling. It feels so like, you're so proud of yourself. But I also think it it it's unfortunate that, like, you have to you have to get to that level before someone will listen to you or hear you or see you. I think it's so telling that unless you can show what you say, people don't give you the benefit of the doubt.

And, I there I remember reading an article about this in, about, like, 5, 10 years ago where, where it's about unconscious bias, but, like, in the opposite direction where if you look the part, people give you the benefit of the doubt. And then when you don't look the part, you have to go the extra step to prove yourself prove yourself worthy. And I think that's a that's how a lot of women feel when they're in very technical situations. Then they are not gonna get the respect unless they earn it, and they might be on a team with someone who's more junior than them, but maybe they look more the part, and they're automatically given the respect, and then they have to lose it instead. And it's such a different, burden to hold.

And there's a term for it, but I can't remember it.

Yeah. Sorry. I'm not the naked speaker, so I really don't know this one. And what would you how would you encourage, you know or maybe you do something within your company or maybe you have some publications or something. How do you encourage young women, and what would you do?

Or, to anybody listening to this podcast, what would you say that makes somebody's young women think about, maybe I could really pursue this?

I think for anyone listening, if you are passionate about something and you want to pursue it, you have to try. You have to put yourself out there and go for it regardless of what anyone else is saying, regardless of, like, the the direct comments you might be getting that you're not the right fit for this and you're not the right person, you have to ignore all external validation and really pursue it because you want to pursue it, because you're passionate about it. And the only way you'll know if it's a good fit for you or not is by trying and doing it yourself. And I think, you know, that's very true for the founder's journey as well. If you want to be a founder, 99.9% of the time, people are gonna say, you cannot do it.

This is impossible. This is a bad idea. This is dumb. And the point is it doesn't matter. You pursue what you're passionate about, and you try to do it in the the way that reduces risk the most.

And you decide when it's been enough, when you've tried enough, when you've tried the right things because you're passionate about it. You have to have an internal why that's driving you, and then you always have to remember that growth mindset, which is that, okay, just because you can't do this today doesn't mean that you can can't do it tomorrow or you can't do it next month, and it's progress over time. And if you really love something and you really pursue it over time, you'll find that experience is really what makes you wise more than anything else. And so if you want to be a senior wise engineer, 10 years from now, 15 years from now, and that's who you see yourself in your career, then you just have to keep going regardless of what anyone else says.

Thanks. Yeah. I think that's that would help me, younger me. If I've been listening to this, this would really encourage me to to go the extra mile. I mean, I did at the end, but it wasn't as easy as maybe people think.

Okay. You're an I'm here now where I am, but I could have dropped off couple of times because, you know, is it for me? I get all these comments. People don't see me as developer. People tend to talk to male developers instead of to me.

It's it's tough out there. But on the other hand, it's it's really thrilling. If you enjoy it, then I would say it's it's a cool industry to be in. Constantly evolving, constantly changing. Dynamic is awesome.

So, yeah, definitely go for it.

I love coding. I think it's so important in our society. I think tech is going to change every industry, and the more you understand how it works, the more sense you have of where the future is going. And so if you're at all passionate about it, you just have to keep learning. You keep pushing yourself.

And I think, you know, it's very easy to get dissuaded by someone who's mean to you or said something or makes you feel less than, but I think any career that you pick, any path you pick is going to be hard. And so in some ways, you have to choose what hard you're going to allow yourself to, like, take on. And if you truly enjoy something, don't let someone else be the one to keep you from pursuing it. Like, stay hungry, stay curious, learn as much as you can, and just follow your passion.

Yeah. I agree. And did you have any mentors or role models in tech, you know, that influenced maybe your style as a leader now as a founder? Did you do you find someone, you know, ex inspirational?

I am always learning from people around me. And when I was at Microsoft, everyone on my team was older and more experienced, and so I was always learning from them and just seeing how they handled situations. And I think even today, like, when I work with a client and I see how they manage their team, I'm always, like, picking up things like, wow. That seems to be working really well for them, or, wow. This doesn't work as well, and I should probably not do that either.

And so I am always learning from my environment and learning from the women and men around me. In terms of having, like, a direct mentor, I've had different folks that I, like, really looked up to in every stage of my career. So from investors that I love working with to professors I really liked at school to, senior leaders at at Microsoft. So I've always tried to find someone who I aspire to be regardless of, like, any disparities or similarities, between us. And I try to reach out whenever I see someone that I want to talk to that I'm that is in my network.

I really encourage everyone listening. It is so easy to send an email after you go to a talk or after you, go to an all hands and you see someone talking and say, like, hey. Like, I'm at this company, and I would love to pick your reign for 15, 20 minutes, as an aspiring engineer. And you'll be surprised how often people respond, and we'll give you those 15 minutes, give you that coffee chat. I still get emails today from, from women, from men, aspiring founders, aspiring engineers who will be like, hey.

Like, I saw this, post about you, and I'd love to chat. I'll be like, yeah. Find 15 minutes on my calendar whenever you can. Like, I'd love to talk to you. Like, I love talking to other women in my shoes 5 years ago or 10 years ago and tell them, like, here's everything I learned.

I don't know if it's any expert advice, but I hope it can help you on your journey. And I think you'll be surprised how many people are willing to do that. You just have to ask for help. You have to reach out.

Yeah. I agree completely. Giving back to the community is something I'm also aspiring to do. And I also joined Mentoring BYTE here in Croatia. I try to support women who wants to go into freelancing to to know what they can expect and how to how to do it and, you know, what you said, like, my journey throughout.

Maybe if we want help, but, you know, that somebody else went through, so maybe it's easier. Yeah. I I I love the idea. Yeah. Definitely.

I agree agree with you and your point of view. And how do you keep culture in your company, you know, to be at the level that you want it to be?

How do I keep culture at my company? It's really tough. I my company changes so much because I'm at an early stage start up. So the the staff is changing all the time. The clients are changing all the time.

We're constantly pivoting as we try to find product market fit. We're still pre product market fit, so it's very hard to know what the company will look like even a month from now. But to what we were talking about earlier, I do think culture is set very early in a company, and it is very hard to change once it is set. And so for me, I've always really wanted to create a environment that is about transparency, it's about positivity, that is about flexibility. I think, freedom and responsibility are just like the themes that are most important to me.

I think everyone especially in an early stage, everyone we hire, we have to be able to trust that they can do what they were hired to do and that they have the freedom to do it however they wanna do it. Like, I have to be able to trust that they are doing the right things, and that means I don't have to micromanage. I don't want to micromanage. I want to empower my team to do what they do best and give them all the resources that I can and then trust that they can get it done the way that they believe is best. And so I think, you know, having that balance between having responsibility and everyone taking responsibility, at the company and then giving them freedom to do what they think is best.

I think that balance is hard to hit, but I think it's what we aspire for.

Nice. And now I have questions that's for me. Like, when did you, you are a coder and you're a good one, obviously. So what was the moment that you, okay, you put something in somebody else's hands and you're comfortable with, I will not check it. I will not check the PR.

Okay. I'll trust it if we will do it the best way possible, and I will not spy on you.

I think, you know, that's I'm always, like, struggling with that. It's so especially when it's your own like, my startup is my baby. Right? And so, it's really hard to let go of that control, but it's also really important to understand that if you don't give up that control, people are not gonna do their best work. No one does their best work constantly being watched, constantly being scrutinized and criticized.

You have to trust that you hired the right person. And if you can't trust that, then you didn't hire the right person, and then you should probably go find the right person. And so I think whenever I get that urge, that urge of, like, oh my god. I really wanna see exactly what they're doing, and I really wanna follow-up. I ask myself, like, when did I last follow-up?

When did I say I was going to follow-up next? And I've, like, started putting in systems like that too, like, from best practices. Like, if I'm, if I'm working with someone and they say they'll have something by a certain date, then I'll trust them that they know when they'll have it by, and either they'll update me on why it's not done or, I can check-in on that day or after that day. And and checking in anytime before that would be micromanaging, and it would be controlling. And I should trust them that they're staying on track for what they promised.

And so I think, you know, creating systems where you can build trust and also build transparency, are really important. And then I think that's why I love, like, any sort of asynchronous project management techniques or tips because they're all about using kanban boards or using, some sort of project management software to know what the status of anything is at any given time without having to follow-up directly with that person.

Makes sense. Yeah. And do you still have time to code, or is it strictly business?

So I was still coding earlier this year, and then the business needs change or the business value changes. And so right now, we're actually not really spending a lot of time building product at all. We're spending a lot more time, dealing with client happiness and client success. And so the business itself has, like, different needs at different times. And so sometimes I need to be there coding, and, other times I don't.

I will say, as a founder, if you find yourself spending time coding, you're probably doing the wrong thing, because your job as the founder of your company is really around growing your business and scaling it and finding new customers, not managing the current product and retaining current customers. That should really be something your team is doing. I'm miscoding, though, so sometimes if I see a bug, I'll go in and change it or fix it myself. But, you know, you said that, like, I I'm a good coder, but I don't know if I'm a good coder because I'm not staying abreast of all of, like, the best techniques, the best frameworks, the best libraries. And sometimes, like, my head engineer will say, hey.

I think we should switch to this library because it's faster. It's, it's better suited for this exact job that we're doing, or maybe we should get rid of these libraries. It's taking up too much processing power, it's taking up too much space. And it's I don't know those things because I'm not the one, like, doing that research and finding the newest frameworks and the newest libraries. And I think a lot of engineering is staying on top of the changes that are happening, in the tech world.

Definitely. No. That's crucial, like, being up to date with the frameworks and libraries and what's the best use case and how to use it, of course. But maybe sometimes, you know, the native solution is the best. So who cares?

Just solve the bug, and let's move on. You're happy. Everyone's tempest.

At a start up, like, speed is more important than quality because you can always rewrite it later.

Exactly. At some point, you will reflect or so. You know?

Exactly.

Yeah. I love it. Awesome. So I think you can wrap it up. And, if you have any more message for for anyone listening, to conclude this conversation about unconscious biases, that would be awesome.

I guess my only thing in which we've talked about a lot over this conversation is that you can't worry about external validation. You have to do what you think is best, and then you have to stay curious and stay hungry and just constantly be learning and being 1% better than yesterday. Definitely.

I 100% agree with everything that Denzel said. Thank you so much for this interview. I really appreciate it and the time, and, it's been great, chatting with you.

Thank you so much for having me. I had so much fun.